Carbon fiber delays and substitute rings
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I understand where you're coming from Bill, and John and team should definitely look into this. I also got the collection and very nearly went for 3 rings with CF, but luckily (as it happens) I instead went for:
(1)
Stealth Bomber
(2)
Silver CF + Silver CF
(3)
Transparent + SilverFor me, I am kind of ok that the Stealth Bomber has had a spec change from CF to plain black. I still would have preferred CF, but hey - John has had a heap of problems already. Getting a 'free' ring for my SilverCf is a definite sweetener, but only because I know I can get the ring I want later. If I'd ordered 3 CF rings, but would only be able to have one of those I'd be annoyed.
Sending out just one freebie is totally understandable, and very generous, but don't hose the real order to be able to do this. Personally I'd rather just receive my #3 ring and then wait for #2 and #1 when CF is ready. For people that have 3 CF rings they will be losing out big time. -
It is tricky isn't it Lokki, because on the one hand you've got delayed pledge delivery (if CF delivery is delayed until working versions are available) but on the other you've got non-pledge delivery (where people don't get the things they pledged for).
As a cosmetic item, which you choose the appearance of, getting something that doesn't look like what you ordered is pretty much the same as not getting it at all. I suppose for those people affected by having more than 1 CF ring and not wanting anything else as a permanent replacement some other scheme needs to be invented, if delaying is not an option ... -
Hi Bill,
It's a shame you're disappointed, I can understand it - I know the carbon fiber is nice but remember there's a voucher for a free ring in the works for those who are affected, plus all backers from kickstarter get the discount voucher for pre-orders when they open. That's 4 and a quarter technologically advanced and shiny rings for the princely sum of fifty nicker. And remember that the kickstarter pricing tends to be pretty close to the bone.
You've got to understand that while John did get pledged a lot in the kickstarter it was also for a lot of rings that he needed to deliver as rewards (yes, pledge rewards - not sale items), and the longer that it takes to deliver all pledges to kickstarter backers the worse it can look. This kind of thing can sometimes make or break new companies when you suddenly have people saying "but we've been patient for a year and you still haven't delivered."
Personally I'd prefer if the NFC Ring was around for a while so that they can continue to innovate, upgrade and improve the Ring and whatever else they may come up with.
Bear in mind that they have also been operating almost purely on that pledged amount since the end of the kickstarter, and they can't start making proper sales until they have delivered all the pledge rewards.This is why postponing your pledge delivery is not a viable option, because if you're allowed to do it then there are others that are going to have to be allowed to do it.
Potentially thousands of others.
And then there would be that non-delivery of pledges hanging over their heads, just waiting for someone to get irritated because now people are buying rings retail and carbon fiber is still being sorted. -
I understand where you're coming from Bill, and John and team should definitely look into this. I also got the collection...snip...
Hi Shama,
I have it on good authority that a number of different ideas were kicked around for resolving the carbon fiber issue, and this was the best solution because 1) the rewards must be delivered asap now, people's patience is wearing thin in places and being 'that company that hasn't delivered for a year' is bad, and 2) replacing ring for ring in the collection when a large number ordered 3 with CF has the potential to severely set back John's NFC Ring company.
As I pointed out to Bill, the collection was already about as cheap as it gets. Giving ring for ring would mean that pretty much every collection was 25 pound for three rings, and that's just way too much to put on John and the team. And if he allows people to put off their orders, then some who are already impatient but think that perhaps there's a chance CF will be sorted next week, next month will put it off, then get upset when it takes a little longer.
This is about getting everyone's pledges sorted to the best of the team's ability so that the kickstarter side of things can be finished and pre-orders then retail can start happening - after all, a little cash flow will help the research needed to sort the carbon fiber. -
It is tricky isn't it Lokki, because on the one hand you've got delayed pledge delivery (if CF delivery is delayed until working versions are available) but on the other you've got non-pledge delivery (where people don't get the things they pledged for).
You're right, it is tricky - and it can be a delicate balance to keep. To be honest I think John is making the right call on this one though. The stylishly pessimistic are becoming louder and a decision really had to be made.
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Hi Bill,
You're irritated, I get that. I'm simply presenting my view of things as they have happened in order to attempt to help you to understand.
But we're descending into a flurry of 'if, but ifs' here.
If you've got moral issues with accepting the vouchers then that's an easy one, you don't need to use them.
You're still looking at a kickstarter pledge as if it were a shiny thing on a shop shelf, ready made and waiting for you to pick it.
It's not, and as [b:25nganmk]you cannot have carbon fiber[/b:25nganmk] because it is currently not viable then you are being offered the best possible choice that can be made at this time.Pledge rewards are being completed in the best way possible at the present time, understanding that [b:25nganmk]carbon fiber is not working and there is no fixed date in sight[/b:25nganmk] for when it will be and the majority of people are working with that, understanding that while it isn't what John wanted it is the best way to move forward understanding that carbon fiber has become an extremely difficult and costly issue.
If one is allowed to hold off and wait, then all must be allowed. And since none are being allowed to hold off and wait then you may not. I'm sorry, it's that simple.
People who volunteered to wait might not have any right to complain, but you know that some would. And bitterly.If there had been a huge negative outcry then things would possibly be different, but the majority has been willing to go with what John has suggested and understanding of the issues involved.
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- the rewards must be delivered asap now, people's patience is wearing thin in places and being 'that company that hasn't delivered for a year' is bad, and 2) replacing ring for ring in the collection when a large number ordered 3 with CF has the potential to severely set back John's NFC Ring company.
Not to be argumentative but... 1) is hasn't delivered for a year worse than 1/3 delivered? 2) find another option then. Don't replace ring for ring. This only effects multi CF purchasers. If a lot of people ordered multi CF rings as you imply than that's a lot of people not getting what they ordered and perhaps a different workaround is in order for those people. Also the price of the collection is not really my concern because I don't want more than I paid for only what I DID pay for. Again not trying to be hostile but these rings were for me and a Christmas gift for my brother. The only inlay that interested us was the CF and after patiently waiting months I get an update that says "Sorry you are going to get something other than what you ordered and a coupon for 1/3 of said order at a later date."
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Shama captured my feelings exactly. Delay of delivery VS. Non-delivery. The free ring is nice. If I ordered one ring I would have no problems. Zero. The 25% is nice but I don't even know if I will use it until I get my rings.. Personally John can keep the free ring and the 25% and just give me what I pledged for and I would be happy. Once I've waited 6 months whats 4 - 6 more? If they weren't making enough off of the collection they should have asked for more and I would have paid it. Now I am getting 3 rings I have no real interest in wearing. Also the claim that if they let me wait other people will wait and they might complain is ridiculous. People have been complaining about delays since the first delay. If you volunteer to have it delayed further you have no right to complain anyway, beside the fact you would be holding me accountable for something other people MIGHT do. Sending me something totally different than what I ordered with a coupon to compensate me for 1/3 of my purchase seems to go 100% against the tone and demeanor set by McClear & co. for the duration of this Kickstarter.
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[quote="Lokki":riqja184]
I have it on good authority that a number of different ideas were kicked around for resolving the carbon fiber issue, and this was the best solution because 1) the rewards must be delivered asap now, people's patience is wearing thin in places and being 'that company that hasn't delivered for a year' is bad,
[/quote:riqja184]
I do appreciate that a number of options may have been kicked around, but I'm pointing out that 'being that company that hasn't delivered for a year' seems to being held up as the driving factor - at the expense of what pledgers want. You could look at it as 'that company that hasn't delivered all their pledges for a year', and as we know that is for very good reasons to do with one particular inlay material. I still think that is a better reputation though than 'that company that didn't give me what I pledged for, and instead gave me something I didn't want just so that they could say that they delivered'. You understand?[quote="Lokki":riqja184]
and 2) replacing ring for ring in the collection when a large number ordered 3 with CF has the potential to severely set back John's NFC Ring company.
As I pointed out to Bill, the collection was already about as cheap as it gets. Giving ring for ring would mean that pretty much every collection was 25 pound for three rings, and that's just way too much to put on John and the team.
[/quote:riqja184]
As Bill says, I don't think people are actually asking for multiple free rings. What they want is just the option to be able to get what they ordered. Maybe even some of those would be amenable to that CF paper inlay that was touted some months back, now that a fuller picture of the CF problems has come about? I don't know, just throwing some options out there.[quote="Lokki":riqja184]
This is about getting everyone's pledges sorted to the best of the team's ability so that the kickstarter side of things can be finished and pre-orders then retail can start happening - after all, a little cash flow will help the research needed to sort the carbon fiber.[/quote:riqja184]
So is the real problem then that real sales can't take place until every kickstarter pledge has been satisfied? Is that a kickstarter condition? If so I can see the dilemma and how a decision came about to satisfy orders, even if they aren't things that pledgers want. -
Shama, you're arguing with the wrong person here.
Re-read the thread, particularly my last reply to Bill.The real issue here is that carbon fiber hasn't worked out.
People cannot have carbon fiber at this time.Carbon fiber will be investigated further and worked on by John and the team but it is impossible to estimate when it will again be available, even though John is hopeful that it will be in the next six months.
It is not outside the realm of possibility that the wait for carbon fiber would be indefinite.
With this in mind the compromise has been offered, and has been accepted by the majority. -
Shama, you're arguing with the wrong person here.
I'm not arguing with you Lokki, just trying to point out how it would feel to be someone who pledges for something but then doesn't get it. Or rather, there is the possibility that they might get 1/3 of that pledge.
Or put another way, Bill would have been better off only pledging £20 - because then he'd get the ring he wanted (and a temporary stand-in), assuming that 6-12 months down-the-line some solution to CF is found (which I think most people are confident will happen ... John already had it working until the materials changed, so not beyond the realms of possibility). But by pledging £50 he's still only going to get one ring that he wants, and the rest will be rings he has no interest in. As a solution to the problem at hand it really doesn't seem the best one possible.
I know you're happy with the solution, but John specifically said he wanted good and bad feedback about this issue in these here forums ... so that's what you're getting!
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At least someone on here has some reason (shama). Loki I'm not looking at kickstarter projects like an off the shelf item ready for the picking or I would have been in here ranting since the October/November delays. I'm "irritated" because I paid $80 for three rings I don't have any desire to wear. I love how you act as if I'm behaving like a spoiled child because I feel let down by not getting what I paid for. If shama is "arguing with the wrong person" by saying he understands where I'm coming from maybe there is someone who can reply who is the right person. I have no moral issues with using a coupon (but thanks for the early morning laugh) just as you have no issues for talking to me like an over entitled child for expecting to get what I paid for, or an email asking me if any inlays would be preferable to just picking transparent inlays and shipping that. If it wasn't for shama the only response I would have gotten here is Carbon Fiber didn't work out... tough shit buddy. Take what we give you and just be happy you got anything at all.
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the only response I would have gotten here is Carbon Fiber didn't work out... tough shit buddy. Take what we give you and just be happy you got anything at all.
Just to pick up on that point, because I only had one CF ring (let's forget about the Stealth Bomber to make things easier) I have no great vested interest in what my "silver CF + silver CF" ring gets changed into ... because it is just temporary for me. I hope to get the ring I want at a later date, so getting a "white + white" is something I'll live with. It isn't a colour option I would ever have chosen though.
Not being given any choice in how this looks was a bit of a surprise, and I understand it was to make the logistics/management of this easier for John+Co. But as I say, because it is one ring and a temporary one at that I'll live with it. If this was a permanent change I'd expect to be consulted on it.
For the multi-CF ring people to have no choice in what their rings will look like seems a very bad decision, because for them this will be a permanent ring, and really it shouldn't matter if it creates more logistics/management work because you're having to bend over backwards to please people who aren't going to get what they wanted in the first place.
So again, I'd have thought everyone who is going to lose out because they're multi-CF should have been handled better. They really should have been offered the options so they could choose something they might want, rather than taking even that decision away from them.
As an example, if my "Silver CF + Silver CF" wasn't possible, and I wouldn't be getting a voucher for a free ring, then I'd have wanted it changed it to another "Transparent + Silver". -
At least someone on here has some reason (shama). Loki I'm not looking at kickstarter projects like an off the shelf item ready for the picking or I would have been in here ranting since the October/November delays. I'm "irritated" because I paid $80 for three rings I don't have any desire to wear. I love how you act as if I'm behaving like a spoiled child because I feel let down by not getting what I paid for. If shama is "arguing with the wrong person" by saying he understands where I'm coming from maybe there is someone who can reply who is the right person. I have no moral issues with using a coupon (but thanks for the early morning laugh) just as you have no issues for talking to me like an over entitled child for expecting to get what I paid for, or an email asking me if any inlays would be preferable to just picking transparent inlays and shipping that. If it wasn't for shama the only response I would have gotten here is Carbon Fiber didn't work out... tough shit buddy. Take what we give you and just be happy you got anything at all.
Hi Bill,
I understand where your coming from, but I don't think you understand how much of a logistical nightmare it would be if we offered people the option to take 1,2 or 3 of there rings.
In terms of offering multiple inlay choices we just couldn't do it. If we offered all 10 colors it doesn't mean that we only have to make 10 new styles of rings. It would mean we would have to make possibly 3(ring metal colour) * 2(ring width) * 24(ring sizes) * 10(inlay colour 1) * 10(black fiber replacement) = 14440 unique rings
We have faced many problems in this journey, some self inflicted but it's very difficult to please everyone. We bend over backwards when we can to help people catch us at the right time (not the next 10 days) and we might be able to help.
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the only response I would have gotten here is Carbon Fiber didn't work out... tough shit buddy. Take what we give you and just be happy you got anything at all.[/quote:vzvapqo8]
errrr this is our bad, you should have had an option. Support is crazy right now message us in 7-10 days or so and we will get it sorted for you
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[quote="NFCringTom":2hxkbpd5]
errrr this is our bad, you should have had an option. Support is crazy right now message us in 7-10 days or so and we will get it sorted for you[/quote:2hxkbpd5]
Don't worry about it Tom, as I say, because this is my only substitute and I'll be getting the voucher for a free replacement I don't really care what the replacement is like. I figured the logic for my replacement fell into group 4 of the 'CF replacement strategy', namely:
[quote:2hxkbpd5]4) Backers that ordered silver fiber and any other inlay cover excluding white will have their silver fiber inlay cover automatically changed to white.[/quote:2hxkbpd5]
So silver CF + silver CF = white + white.
My point really was that if I was a multi-CF ring person, and so wouldn't be getting free replacements for them all, I'd have liked to have had the choice of the replacement options. But for me, hey, it's just temporary. -
I stepped back from this thread because we seemed to be in a bit of a feedback loop there, so I apologise if I came across the wrong way. I had seen this as a lack of information and or understanding and had approached it that way which obviously didn't work out for any of us.
I'd just like to point this out, I'm not sure how many of you out there use Reddit (it says there are 47 readers but not everyone will be registered) but I personally think everyone should see this post.
Not the initial one, but read through and see John's response regarding the carbon fiber nightmare. It helps put things in perspective a little.http://www.reddit.com/r/nfcring/comments/1zxvbc/just_a_little_heads_up/
